Legacy:Crossbow
Version 1
Date: 2009-05-03 14:23:43 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Initial version
= Synopsis The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book. = Omission From [[ArM5]] Rule Book [[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of ArM5 for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. David Chart decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book. = Official Crossbow Rules [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official Fifth Edition stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement. == Reload Time Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Coveants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others. The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]: [begin:.quote] I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical. ["--Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006] [end:.quote] == [anchor:HouseRule]House Rules for Crossbows Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]; his full post is available from the the mailing list archives at [!http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/] ''(Maintainer's note: I had trouble getting Pie to process this link correctly)'' (Search by date and author, and look for the first post by Timothy titled "Erratum numbers: (Was FAQ Update - Crossbows)". = References * [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] page 18 = See also * [[Longbow]]
Version 2
Date: 2009-05-03 14:36:14 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Added anchor
= Synopsis The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book. = Omission From [[ArM5]] Rule Book [[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of ArM5 for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. David Chart decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book. = Official Crossbow Rules [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official Fifth Edition stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement. == [anchor:Reload]Reloadr:Reload]Reload Time Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Coveants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others. The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]: [begin:.quote] I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical. ["--Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006] [end:.quote] == [anchor:HouseRule]House Rules for Crossbows Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]; his full post is available from the the mailing list archives at [!http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/] ''(Maintainer's note: I had trouble getting Pie to process this link correctly)'' (Search by date and author, and look for the first post by Timothy titled "Erratum numbers: (Was FAQ Update - Crossbows)". = References * [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] page 18 = See also
Version 3
Date: 2009-05-03 16:21:03 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Added Timothy's suggested crossbow statistics
= Synopsis The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book. = Omission From [[ArM5]] Rule Book [[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of ArM5 for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. David Chart decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book. = Official Crossbow Rules [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official Fifth Edition stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement. == [anchor:Reload]Reload Time Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Coveants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others. The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]: [begin:.quote] I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical. ["--Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006] [end:.quote] == [anchor:HouseRule]House Rules for Crossbows Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]. For convenience, the majority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also availaajority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also available from the the mailing list archives at [!http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/] ''(Maintainer's[begin:.quote] The current rules for crossbows caused some concern on the mailing list. In response players may find the following information useful. * The Initiative modifier on the crossbow is so much higher than that on the bows because it assumes the weapon is already loaded. If it is not loaded, it cannot be used in the first round of combat, and as such has no Initiative score. * The intention of the current rules was that most people, using a crossbow from a fixed position, should be able to fire once every two minutes. This delay falls to one minute if your character's bow has a winding mechanism. * It's very difficult to find good period data concerning the rate of fire of crossbows. The bows I've used in "Covenants" seem to antedate the period, and be on the higher end of power, which makes their rate of fire low. * The dates used are dependent, essentially, on "The Book of the Crossbow", by Ralph Payne-Gallwey. This is the classic touchstone text, but has come under challenge recently. * Even accurate data is problematic, because if converted directly into game mechanics, it would not balance the weapons already in place. The other statistics are not perfectly simulationist - so those for the crossbow cannot be. For players wanting a more permissive set of rules on the crossbow, allow me to take as my text an excellent article published after I had done my research into crossbows for "Covenants". It's D Bachrach (2004) "Crossbows for the King", Technology and Culture, v.45 iss.1, 2004. Available from Proquest in electronic form. Bachrach notes that the crossbows being used in England during the game period come in two materials, and three spanning in types. The spanning types he identifies are "one footed", "two footed" and "turnus". "One footed" are bows with a stirrup for one foot, that are loaded with a belt hook. "Two footed" he notes have stirrups large enough for both feet, but does not say if they are loaded with a belt hook. Let us presume they are. Last, he calls the "turnus" a winch, and notes that Payne-Gallwey calls it a pulley system for which no evidence has ever been found. In stated, direct opposition to Payne-Gallwey, Bachrach notes that there are clear references to both wooden and composite crossbows in documents suitable for the Ars Magica period, and quoted from these documents in a most convincing way. Wooden bows are larger, cheaper weaker bows that are easier to span. They are more resistant to damp that composite bows. On small samples, he notes that: half of the single-footed bows seem to be wood, the other half composite. There are more than twice as many double footed composite bows than wooden ones. Turnus bows seem to be even more likely to be composite. A stonebow, added to the table, is not referenced in his article. It is a crossbow with two strings, and a pouch of fabric between them. It is used to fling stones at birds. It has little power, but might be used by magi wanting to deliver a single-use magic item, like a potion, to a precise place on a battlefield. A self-spaned bow is also essentially a hunting weapon. In my attempt to reconstruct my research I did find reference to Iberian mounted crossbowmen. I can't tell if they dismounted to reload or used light bows like these. This splits the class "crossbow" into a variety of weapons. |=Type |=Init|=Atk|=Def|=Dmg|=Range|=Str|=Load|=Cost|=Reload times| |Stonebow | 5 (-2)* | 5 | n/a | 3 | 10 | -1 | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |Hand spanned | 5 (-4)* | 5 | n/a | 5 | 20 | zero | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |One foot | 5 | 5 | n/a | 7 | 25 | 1 | 1 | Exp. | Requires one round to reload| |Two foot| 5 | 5 | n/a | 8 | 28 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | Requires two rounds to reload| |Turnus | 5 | 5 | n/a | 9 | 30 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | 1 mintue | |Steel | 5 | 5 | n/a | 10 | 35 | 1 | 2 | ** | 1 minute | Larger variants exist, forming a continumn up to siege weapons. * Initiative in brackets for if weapon is unloaded ** Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Verditus]]. [end:.quote] Maintainer's note: a brief section on "comparable weapons" has been redacted due to site [[Policy]] -- it reproduced longbow and shortbow statistics from the rule book] [begin:.quote] Note that even these numbers are not strictly simulationist. A heavy bow really takes longer, a light bow really takes less time. As a note for players, a crossbowman, in Latin, is called a balistarius. The term is used for siege engineers using what we'd call a balista. Without naming names, one of the other authors of Covenants did express similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was preferable. I apologise. Note, since last posting I have dropped the rate of fire for two-footed bows. Bascially this turns them into siege weapons, which answers my question "Why would you ever have a one-footed bow under these rules?" A turnus would be more than Expensive if there was such a thing. [end:.quote] = References * [[Covenantsist. In response players may find the following infor
Version 4
Date: 2009-05-03 19:51:28 GMT Author: pm Comment: External link enforced; quoted (pasted) paragraphs reformatted
= Synopsis The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book. = Omission From [[ArM5]] Rule Book [[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of [[ArM5]] for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. [[David Chart]] decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book. = Official Crossbow Rules [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official [[Fifth Edition]] stats for crossbows r crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement. == [anchor:Reload]Reload Time Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Coveants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others. The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]: [begin:.quote] I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as � Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006] [end:.quote] == [anchor:HouseRule]House Rules for Crossbows Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]. For convenience, the majority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also available from the the mailing list archives at [link:http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/] The current rules for crossbows caused some concern on the [[Berk List|mailing list]]. In response players may find the following information useful. * The Initiative modifier on the crossbow is so much higher than that on the bows because it assumes the weapon is already loaded. If it is not loaded, it cannot be used in the first round of combat, and as such has no Initiative score. * The intention of the current rules was that most people, using a crossbow from a fixed position, should be able to fire once every two minutes. This delay falls to one minute if your character's bow has a winding mechanism. * It's very difficult to find good period data concerning the rate of fire of crossbows. The bows I've used in "Covenants" seem to antedate the period, and be on the higher end of power, which makes their rate of fire low. * The dates used are dependent, essentially, on "The Book of the Crossbow", by Ralph Payne-Gallwey. This is the classic touchstone text, but has come under challenge recently. * Even accurate data is problematic, because if converted directly into game mechanics, it would not balance the weapons already in place. The other statistics are not perfectly simulationist - so those for the crossbow cannot be. For players wanting a more permissive set of rules on the crossbow, allow me to take as my text an excellent article published after I had done my research into crossbows for "Covenants". It's D Bachrach (2004) "Crossbows for the King", Technology and Culture, v.45 iss.1, 2004. Available from Proquest in electronic form. Bachrach notes that the crossbows being used in England during the game period come in two materials, and three spanning in types. The spanning types he identifies are "one footed", "two footed" and "turnus". "One footed" are bows with a stirrup for one foot, that are loaded with a belt hook. "Two footed" he notes have stirrups large enough for both feet, but does not say if they are loaded with a belt hook. Let us presume they are. Last, he calls the "turnus" a winch, and notes that Payne-Gallwey calls it a pulley system for which no evidence has ever been found. In stated, direct opposition to Payne-Gallwey, Bachrach notes that there are clear references to both wooden and composite crossbows in documents suitable for the Ars Magica period, and quoted from these documents in a most convincing way. Wooden bows are larger, cheaper weaker bows that are easier to span. They are more resistant to damp that composite bows. On small samples, he notes that: half of the single-footed bows seem to be wood, the other half composite. There are more than twice as many double footed composite bows than wooden ones. Turnus bows seem to be even more likely to be composite. A stonebow, added to the table, is not referenced in his article. It is a crossbow with two strings, and a pouch of fabric between them. It is used to fling stones at birds. It has little power, but might be used by magi wanting to deliver a single-use magic item, like a potion, to a precise place on a battlefield. A self-spaned bow is also essentially a hunting weapon. In my attempt to reconstruct my research I did find reference to Iberian mounted crossbowmen. I can't tell if they dismounted to reload or used light bows like these. This splits the class "crossbow" into a variety of weapons. |=Type |=Init|=Atk|=Def|=Dmg|=Range|=| -1 | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |Hand spanned | 5 (-4)* | 5 | n/a | 5 | 20 | zero | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |One foot | 5 | 5 | n/a | 7 | 25 | 1 | 1 | Exp. | Requires one round to reload| |Two foot| 5 | 5 | n/a | 8 | 28 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | Requires two rounds to reload| |Turnus | 5 | 5 | n/a | 9 | 30 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | 1 mintue | |Steel | 5 | 5 | n/a | 10 | 35 | 1 | 2 | ** | 1 minute | Larger variants exist, forming a continumn up to siege weapons. * Initiative in brackets for if weapon is unloaded ** Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Ve** Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Verditus]]. Maintainer's note: a brief section on "comparable weapons" has been redacted due to site [[Policy]] � it reproduced longbow and shortbow statistics from the rule book] [begin:.quote] Note that even these numbers are not strictly simulationist. A heavy bow really takes longer, a light bow really takes less time. As a note for players, a crossbowman, in Latin, is called a balistarius. g names, one of the other authors of Covenants did express similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was p similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was preferable. I apologise. Note, since last posting I have dropped the rate of fire for two-footed bows. Bascially this turns them into siege weapons, which answers my question "Why would you ever have a one-footed bow under these rules?" A turnus would be more than | Covenants]] page 18 = See also * [[Longbow]]
Version 5
Date: 2009-05-08 15:28:07 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Format changes -- removed quoted section, fixed asterisks, added citation
= Synopsis The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book. = Omission From [[ArM5]] Rule Book [[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of [[ArM5]] for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. [[David Chart]] decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book. = Official Crossbow Rules [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official [[Fifth Edition]] stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement. == [anchor:Reload]Reload Time Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Coveants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others. The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]: [begin:.quote] I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical. ["� Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006] [end:.quote] == [anchor:HouseRule]House Rules for Crossbows Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]. For convenience, the majority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also available from the the mailing list archives at [link:http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/] The current rules for crossbows caused some concern on the [[Berk List|mailing list]]. In response players may find the following information useful. * The Initiative modifier on the crossbow is so much higher than that on the bows because it assumes the weapon is already loaded. If it is not loaded, it cannot be used in the first round of combat, and as such has no Initiative score. * The intention of the current rules was that most people, using a crossbow from a fixed position, should be able to fire once every two minutes. This delay falls to one minute if your character's bow has a winding mechanism. * It's very difficult to find good period data concerning the rate of fire of crossbows. The bows I've used in "Covenants" seem to antedate the period, and be on the higher end of power, which makes their rate of fire low. * The dates used are dependent, essentially, on "The Book of the Crossbow", by Ralph Payne-Gallwey. This is the classic touchstone text, but has come under challenge recently. * Even accurate data is problematic, because if converted directly into game mechanics, it would not balance the weapons already in place. The other statistics are not perfectly simulationist - so those for the crossbow cannot be. For players wanting a more permissive set of rules on the crossbow, allow me to take as my text an excellent article published after I had done my research into crossbows for "Covenants". It's D Bachrach (2004) "Crossbows for the King", Technology and Culture, v.45 iss.1, 2004. Available from Proquest in electronic form. Bachrach notes that the crossbows being used in England during the game period come in two materials, and three spanning in types. The spanning types he identifies are "one footed", "two footed" and "turnus". "One footed" are bows with a stirrup for one foot, that are loaded with a belt hook. "Two footed" he notes have stirrups large enough for both feet, but does not say if they are loaded with a belt hook. Let us presume they are. Last, he calls the "turnus" a winch, and notes that Payne-Gallwey calls it a pulley system for which no evidence has ever been found. In stated, direct opposition to Payne-Gallwey, Bachrach notes that there are clear references to both wooden and composite crossbows in documents suitable for the Ars Magica period, and quoted from these documents in a most convincing way. Wooden bows are larger, cheaper weaker bows that are easier to span. They are more resistant to damp that composite bows. On small samples, he notes that: half of the single-footed bows seem to be wood, the other half composite. There are more than twice as many double footed composite bows than wooden ones. Turnus bows seem to be even more likely to be composite. A stonebow, added to the table, is not referenced in his article. It is a crossbow with two strings, and a pouch of fabric between them. It is used to fling stones at birds. It has little power, but might be used by magi wanting to deliver a single-use magic item, like a potion, to a precise place on a battlefield. A self-spaned bow is also essentially a hunting weapon. In my attempt to reconstruct my research I did find reference to Iberian mounted crossbowmen. I can't tell if they dismounted to reload or used light bows like these. This splits the class "crossbow" into a variety of weapons. |=Type |=Init|=Atk|=Def|=Dmg|=Range|=Str|=Load|=Cost|=Reload times| |Stonebow | 5 (-2)* | 5 | n/a | 3 | 10 | -1 | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |Hand spanned | 5 (-4)* | 5 | n/a | 5 | 20 | zero | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |One foot | 5 | 5 | n/a | 7 | 25 | 1 | 1 | Exp. | Requires one round to reload| |Two foot| 5 | 5 | n/a | 8 | 28 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | Requires two rounds to reload| |Turnus | 5 | 5 | n/a | 9 | 30 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | 1 mintue | |Steel | 5 | 5 | n/a | 10 | 35 | 1 | 2 | ** | 1 minute | Larger variants exist, forming a continumn up to siege weapons. \* Initiative in brackets for if weapon is unloaded \*\* Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Verditus]]. [begin:.quote] \[Maintainer\'s note: a brief section on \"comparable weapons\" has been redacted due to site [[Policy]] � it reproduced longbow and shortbow statistics from the rule book\] [end:.quote] book\] [end:.quote] Note that even these numbers are not strictly simulationist. A heavy bow really takes longer, a light bow really takes less time. As a note for players, a crossbowman, in Latin, is called a balistarius. The term is used for siege engineers using what we'd call a balista. Without naming names, one of the other authors of Covenants did express similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was preferable. I apologise. Note, since last posting I have dropped the rate of fire for two-footed bows. Bascially this turns them into siege weapons, which answers my question "Why would you ever have a one-footed bow under these rules?" A turnus would be more than Expensive if th ["--Timothy Fergusonh a thing. ["--Timothy Ferguson] = References * [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] pa
Version 6
Date: 2009-05-08 15:29:13 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Added horizontal rule
= Synopsis The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book. = Omission From [[ArM5]] Rule Book [[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of [[ArM5]] for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. [[David Chart]] decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book. = Official Crossbow Rules [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official [[Fifth Edition]] stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement. == [anchor:Reload]Reload Time Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Coveants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others. The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]: [begin:.quote] I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical. ["� Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006] [end:.quote] == [anchor:HouseRule]House Rules for Crossbows Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]. For convenience, the majority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also available from the the mailing list archives at [link:http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/] --- --- The current rules for crossbows caused some concern on the [[Berk List|mailing list]]. In response players may find the following information useful. * The Initiative modifier on the crossbow is so much higher than that on the bows because it assumes the weapon is already loaded. If it is not loaded, it cannot be used in the first round of combat, and as such has no Initiative score. * The intention of the current rules was that most people, using a crossbow from a fixed position, should be able to fire once every two minutes. This delay falls to one minute if your character's bow has a winding mechanism. * It's very difficult to find good period data concerning the rate of fire of crossbows. The bows I've used in "Covenants" seem to antedate the period, and be on the higher end of power, which makes their rate of fire low. * The dates used are dependent, essentially, on "The Book of the Crossbow", by Ralph Payne-Gallwey. This is the classic touchstone text, but has come under challenge recently. * Even accurate data is problematic, because if converted directly into game mechanics, it would not balance the weapons already in place. The other statistics are not perfectly simulationist - so those for the crossbow cannot be. For players wanting a more permissive set of rules on the crossbow, allow me to take as my text an excellent article published after I had done my research into crossbows for "Covenants". It's D Bachrach (2004) "Crossbows for the King", Technology and Culture, v.45 iss.1, 2004. Available from Proquest in electronic form. Bachrach notes that the crossbows being used in England during the game period come in two materials, and three spanning in types. The spanning types he identifies are "one footed", "two footed" and "turnus". "One footed" are bows with a stirrup for one foot, that are loaded with a belt hook. "Two footed" he notes have stirrups large enough for both feet, but does not say if they are loaded with a belt hook. Let us presume they are. Last, he calls the "turnus" a winch, and notes that Payne-Gallwey calls it a pulley system for which no evidence has ever been found. In stated, direct opposition to Payne-Gallwey, Bachrach notes that there are clear references to both wooden and composite crossbows in documents suitable for the Ars Magica period, and quoted from these documents in a most convincing way. Wooden bows are larger, cheaper weaker bows that are easier to span. They are more resistant to damp that composite bows. On small samples, he notes that: half of the single-footed bows seem to be wood, the other half composite. There are more than twice as many double footed composite bows than wooden ones. Turnus bows seem to be even more likely to be composite. A stonebow, added to the table, is not referenced in his article. It is a crossbow with two strings, and a pouch of fabric between them. It is used to fling stones at birds. It has little power, but might be used by magi wanting to deliver a single-use magic item, like a potion, to a precise place on a battlefield. A self-spaned bow is also essentially a hunting weapon. In my attempt to reconstruct my research I did find reference to Iberian mounted crossbowmen. I can't tell if they dismounted to reload or used light bows like these. This splits the class "crossbow" into a variety of weapons. |=Type |=Init|=Atk|=Def|=Dmg|=Range|=Str|=Load|=Cost|=Reload times| |Stonebow | 5 (-2)* | 5 | n/a | 3 | 10 | -1 | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |Hand spanned | 5 (-4)* | 5 | n/a | 5 | 20 | zero | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round | |One foot | 5 | 5 | n/a | 7 | 25 | 1 | 1 | Exp. | Requires one round to reload| |Two foot| 5 | 5 | n/a | 8 | 28 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | Requires two rounds to reload| |Turnus | 5 | 5 | n/a | 9 | 30 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | 1 mintue | |Steel | 5 | 5 | n/a | 10 | 35 | 1 | 2 | ** | 1 minute | Larger variants exist, forming a continumn up to siege weapons. \* Initiative in brackets for if weapon is unloaded \*\* Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Verditus]]. [begin:.quote] \[Maintainer\'s note: a brief section on \"comparable weapons\" has been redacted due to site [[Policy]] � it reproduced longbow and shortbow statistics from the rule book\] [end:.quote] Note that even these numbers are not strictly simulationist. A heavy bow really takes longer, a light bow really takes less time. As a note for players, a crossbowman, in Latin, is called a balistarius. The term is used for siege engineers using what we'd call a balista. Without naming names, one of the other authors of Covenants did express similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was preferable. I apologise. Note, since last posting I have dropped the rate of fire for two-footed bows. Bascially this turns them into siege weapons, which answers my question "Why would you ever have a one-footed bow under these rules?" A turnus would be more than Expensive if there was such a thing. ["--Timothy Ferguson] = References * [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] page 18 = See also * [[Long
Version 7
Date: 2010-02-21 19:59:27 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Added table of contents, cleaned up formatting
{{toc}}
The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book.
= Omission From ArM5 Rule Book
[[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of [[ArM5]] for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. [[David Chart]] decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book.
= Official Crossbow Rules
[[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official [[Fifth Edition]] stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement.
{{anchor|Reload}}
== Reload Time
Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Covenants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others.
The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]:
{{quote|I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical.}}
{{cite|Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006}}
{{anchor|HouseRule}}
== House Rules for Crossbows
Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]. For convenience, the majority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also available from the the mailing list archives at {{link|http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/}}
---
The current rules for crossbows caused some concern on the [[Berk List|mailing list]]. In response players may find the following information useful.
* The Initiative modifier on the crossbow is so much higher than that on the bows because it assumes the weapon is already loaded. If it is not loaded, it cannot be used in the first round of combat, and as such has no Initiative score.
* The intention of the current rules was that most people, using a crossbow from a fixed position, should be able to fire once every two minutes. This delay falls to one minute if your character's bow has a winding mechanism.
* It's very difficult to find good period data concerning the rate of fire of crossbows. The bows I've used in "Covenants" seem to antedate the period, and be on the higher end of power, which makes their rate of fire low.
* The dates used are dependent, essentially, on "The Book of the Crossbow", by Ralph Payne-Gallwey. This is the classic touchstone text, but has come under challenge recently.
* Even accurate data is problematic, because if converted directly into game mechanics, it would not balance the weapons already in place. The other statistics are not perfectly simulationist - so those for the crossbow cannot be.
For players wanting a more permissive set of rules on the crossbow, allow me to take as my text an excellent article published after I had done my research into crossbows for "Covenants". It's D Bachrach (2004) "Crossbows for the King", Technology and Culture, v.45 iss.1, 2004. Available from Proquest in electronic form.
Bachrach notes that the crossbows being used in England during the game period come in two materials, and three spanning in types. The spanning types he identifies are "one footed", "two footed" and "turnus". "One footed" are bows with a stirrup for one foot, that are loaded with a belt hook. "Two footed" he notes have stirrups large enough for both feet, but does not say if they are loaded with a belt hook. Let us presume they are. Last, he calls the "turnus" a winch, and notes that Payne-Gallwey calls it a pulley system for which no evidence has ever been found.
In stated, direct opposition to Payne-Gallwey, Bachrach notes that there are clear references to both wooden and composite crossbows in documents suitable for the Ars Magica period, and quoted from these documents in a most convincing way. Wooden bows are larger, cheaper weaker bows that are easier to span. They are more resistant to damp that composite bows. On small samples, he notes that: half of the single-footed bows seem to be wood, the other half composite. There are more than twice as many double footed composite bows than wooden ones. Turnus bows seem to be even more likely to be composite.
A stonebow, added to the table, is not referenced in his article. It is a crossbow with two strings, and a pouch of fabric between them. It is used to fling stones at birds. It has little power, but might be used by magi wanting to deliver a single-use magic item, like a potion, to a precise place on a battlefield. A self-spaned bow is also essentially a hunting
weapon. In my attempt to reconstruct my research I did find reference to Iberian mounted crossbowmen. I can't tell if they dismounted to reload or used light bows like these.
This splits the class "crossbow" into a variety of weapons.
|'''Type''' | '''Init''' | '''Atk''' | '''Def''' | '''Dmg''' | '''Range '''| '''Str ''' | '''Load ''' | '''Cost ''' | '''Reload times''' |
|Stonebow | 5 (-2)* | 5 | n/a | 3 | 10 | -1 | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round |
|Hand spanned | 5 (-4)* | 5 | n/a | 5 | 20 | zero | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round |
|One foot | 5 | 5 | n/a | 7 | 25 | 1 | 1 | Exp. | Requires one round to reload|
|Two foot| 5 | 5 | n/a | 8 | 28 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | Requires two rounds to reload|
|Turnus | 5 | 5 | n/a | 9 | 30 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | 1 mintue |
|Steel | 5 | 5 | n/a | 10 | 35 | 1 | 2 | ** | 1 minute |
Larger variants exist, forming a continumn up to siege weapons.
\* Initiative in brackets for if weapon is unloaded
\*\* Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Verditus]].
{{quote|\[Maintainer\'s note: a brief section on \"comparable weapons\" has been redacted due to site [[Policy]] � it reproduced longbow and shortbow statistics from the rule book\]}}
Note that even these numbers are not strictly simulationist. A heavy bow really takes longer, a light bow really takes less time.
As a note for players, a crossbowman, in Latin, is called a balistarius. The term is used for siege engineers using what we'd call a balista.
Without naming names, one of the other authors of Covenants did express similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was preferable. I apologise.
Note, since last posting I have dropped the rate of fire for two-footed bows. Basicilly this turns them into siege weapons, which answers my question "Why would you ever have a one-footed bow under these rules?" A turnus would be more than Expensive if there was such a thing.
{{cite|Timothy Ferguson}}
= References
* [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] page 18
= See also
* [[Longbow]]
Version 8
Date: 2010-02-21 20:00:28 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Fixed heading level
{{toc}}
The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book.
= Omission From ArM5 Rule Book
[[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of [[ArM5]] for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. [[David Chart]] decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book.
= Official Crossbow Rules
[[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official [[Fifth Edition]] stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement.
{{anchor|Reload}}
== Reload Time
Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Covenants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others.
The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]:
{{quote|I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical.}}
{{cite|Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006}}
{{anchor|HouseRule}}
= House Rules for Crossbows
Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]. For convenience, the majority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also available from the the mailing list archives at {{link|http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/}}
---
The current rules for crossbows caused some concern on the [[Berk List|mailing list]]. In response players may find the following information useful.
* The Initiative modifier on the crossbow is so much higher than that on the bows because it assumes the weapon is already loaded. If it is not loaded, it cannot be used in the first round of combat, and as such has no Initiative score.
* The intention of the current rules was that most people, using a crossbow from a fixed position, should be able to fire once every two minutes. This delay falls to one minute if your character's bow has a winding mechanism.
* It's very difficult to find good period data concerning the rate of fire of crossbows. The bows I've used in "Covenants" seem to antedate the period, and be on the higher end of power, which makes their rate of fire low.
* The dates used are dependent, essentially, on "The Book of the Crossbow", by Ralph Payne-Gallwey. This is the classic touchstone text, but has come under challenge recently.
* Even accurate data is problematic, because if converted directly into game mechanics, it would not balance the weapons already in place. The other statistics are not perfectly simulationist - so those for the crossbow cannot be.
For players wanting a more permissive set of rules on the crossbow, allow me to take as my text an excellent article published after I had done my research into crossbows for "Covenants". It's D Bachrach (2004) "Crossbows for the King", Technology and Culture, v.45 iss.1, 2004. Available from Proquest in electronic form.
Bachrach notes that the crossbows being used in England during the game period come in two materials, and three spanning in types. The spanning types he identifies are "one footed", "two footed" and "turnus". "One footed" are bows with a stirrup for one foot, that are loaded with a belt hook. "Two footed" he notes have stirrups large enough for both feet, but does not say if they are loaded with a belt hook. Let us presume they are. Last, he calls the "turnus" a winch, and notes that Payne-Gallwey calls it a pulley system for which no evidence has ever been found.
In stated, direct opposition to Payne-Gallwey, Bachrach notes that there are clear references to both wooden and composite crossbows in documents suitable for the Ars Magica period, and quoted from these documents in a most convincing way. Wooden bows are larger, cheaper weaker bows that are easier to span. They are more resistant to damp that composite bows. On small samples, he notes that: half of the single-footed bows seem to be wood, the other half composite. There are more than twice as many double footed composite bows than wooden ones. Turnus bows seem to be even more likely to be composite.
A stonebow, added to the table, is not referenced in his article. It is a crossbow with two strings, and a pouch of fabric between them. It is used to fling stones at birds. It has little power, but might be used by magi wanting to deliver a single-use magic item, like a potion, to a precise place on a battlefield. A self-spaned bow is also essentially a hunting
weapon. In my attempt to reconstruct my research I did find reference to Iberian mounted crossbowmen. I can't tell if they dismounted to reload or used light bows like these.
This splits the class "crossbow" into a variety of weapons.
|'''Type''' | '''Init''' | '''Atk''' | '''Def''' | '''Dmg''' | '''Range '''| '''Str ''' | '''Load ''' | '''Cost ''' | '''Reload times''' |
|Stonebow | 5 (-2)* | 5 | n/a | 3 | 10 | -1 | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round |
|Hand spanned | 5 (-4)* | 5 | n/a | 5 | 20 | zero | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round |
|One foot | 5 | 5 | n/a | 7 | 25 | 1 | 1 | Exp. | Requires one round to reload|
|Two foot| 5 | 5 | n/a | 8 | 28 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | Requires two rounds to reload|
|Turnus | 5 | 5 | n/a | 9 | 30 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | 1 mintue |
|Steel | 5 | 5 | n/a | 10 | 35 | 1 | 2 | ** | 1 minute |
Larger variants exist, forming a continumn up to siege weapons.
\* Initiative in brackets for if weapon is unloaded
\*\* Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Verditus]].
{{quote|\[Maintainer\'s note: a brief section on \"comparable weapons\" has been redacted due to site [[Policy]] � it reproduced longbow and shortbow statistics from the rule book\]}}
Note that even these numbers are not strictly simulationist. A heavy bow really takes longer, a light bow really takes less time.
As a note for players, a crossbowman, in Latin, is called a balistarius. The term is used for siege engineers using what we'd call a balista.
Without naming names, one of the other authors of Covenants did express similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was preferable. I apologise.
Note, since last posting I have dropped the rate of fire for two-footed bows. Basicilly this turns them into siege weapons, which answers my question "Why would you ever have a one-footed bow under these rules?" A turnus would be more than Expensive if there was such a thing.
{{cite|Timothy Ferguson}}
= References
* [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] page 18
= See also
* [[Longbow]]
Version 9
Date: 2010-02-22 01:26:47 GMT Author: AndrewGronosky Comment: Updated link to Berk List archives
{{toc}}
The crossbow was a fairly common medieval weapon, yet no statistics for it appear in the [[ArM5]] rule book.
= Omission From ArM5 Rule Book
[[David Chart]] has explained that crossbows were left out of [[ArM5]] for brevity and simplicity. Rules for crossbows would be rather complicated because crossbows take a relatively long time to reload, and once loaded, they can be fired quickly. In particular, how the reloading cycle of crossbows would interact with the [[Group Combat | group combat]] rules is not obvious. [[David Chart]] decided that detailed crossbow rules would be better placed in a supplement than in the main book.
= Official Crossbow Rules
[[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] contains the official [[Fifth Edition]] stats for crossbows (page 18). It also notes that a more detailed treatment of the weapon will be given in a yet-unannounced future supplement.
{{anchor|Reload}}
== Reload Time
Some players have argued that the reload times for crossbows in [[ArM5]] seem excessively long. [[Timothy Ferguson]], author of that piece of [[Covenants Book | Covenants]] did his historical research - those numbers aren't just made up. However, there seem to have been a variety of different types of crossbows in the early 13th Century: presumably, some could be reloaded faster than others.
The author of the crossbow rules did post the following note to the [[Berk List | Berkeley mailing list]]:
{{quote|I've been trying to reconstruct my research on crossbows, and I'm increasingly coming to the view that I've chosen an outlying case as typical.}}
{{cite|Timothy Ferguson, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 28 February 2006}}
{{anchor|HouseRule}}
= House Rules for Crossbows
Timothy went on to suggest alternate reload times for people to use as [[House Rule | house rules]]. For convenience, the majority of his post is reproduced here. The full text is also available from the the mailing list archives at {{link|http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/ars-magica/}}
---
The current rules for crossbows caused some concern on the [[Berk List|mailing list]]. In response players may find the following information useful.
* The Initiative modifier on the crossbow is so much higher than that on the bows because it assumes the weapon is already loaded. If it is not loaded, it cannot be used in the first round of combat, and as such has no Initiative score.
* The intention of the current rules was that most people, using a crossbow from a fixed position, should be able to fire once every two minutes. This delay falls to one minute if your character's bow has a winding mechanism.
* It's very difficult to find good period data concerning the rate of fire of crossbows. The bows I've used in "Covenants" seem to antedate the period, and be on the higher end of power, which makes their rate of fire low.
* The dates used are dependent, essentially, on "The Book of the Crossbow", by Ralph Payne-Gallwey. This is the classic touchstone text, but has come under challenge recently.
* Even accurate data is problematic, because if converted directly into game mechanics, it would not balance the weapons already in place. The other statistics are not perfectly simulationist - so those for the crossbow cannot be.
For players wanting a more permissive set of rules on the crossbow, allow me to take as my text an excellent article published after I had done my research into crossbows for "Covenants". It's D Bachrach (2004) "Crossbows for the King", Technology and Culture, v.45 iss.1, 2004. Available from Proquest in electronic form.
Bachrach notes that the crossbows being used in England during the game period come in two materials, and three spanning in types. The spanning types he identifies are "one footed", "two footed" and "turnus". "One footed" are bows with a stirrup for one foot, that are loaded with a belt hook. "Two footed" he notes have stirrups large enough for both feet, but does not say if they are loaded with a belt hook. Let us presume they are. Last, he calls the "turnus" a winch, and notes that Payne-Gallwey calls it a pulley system for which no evidence has ever been found.
In stated, direct opposition to Payne-Gallwey, Bachrach notes that there are clear references to both wooden and composite crossbows in documents suitable for the Ars Magica period, and quoted from these documents in a most convincing way. Wooden bows are larger, cheaper weaker bows that are easier to span. They are more resistant to damp that composite bows. On small samples, he notes that: half of the single-footed bows seem to be wood, the other half composite. There are more than twice as many double footed composite bows than wooden ones. Turnus bows seem to be even more likely to be composite.
A stonebow, added to the table, is not referenced in his article. It is a crossbow with two strings, and a pouch of fabric between them. It is used to fling stones at birds. It has little power, but might be used by magi wanting to deliver a single-use magic item, like a potion, to a precise place on a battlefield. A self-spaned bow is also essentially a hunting
weapon. In my attempt to reconstruct my research I did find reference to Iberian mounted crossbowmen. I can't tell if they dismounted to reload or used light bows like these.
This splits the class "crossbow" into a variety of weapons.
|'''Type''' | '''Init''' | '''Atk''' | '''Def''' | '''Dmg''' | '''Range '''| '''Str ''' | '''Load ''' | '''Cost ''' | '''Reload times''' |
|Stonebow | 5 (-2)* | 5 | n/a | 3 | 10 | -1 | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round |
|Hand spanned | 5 (-4)* | 5 | n/a | 5 | 20 | zero | 1 | Exp. | May fire every round |
|One foot | 5 | 5 | n/a | 7 | 25 | 1 | 1 | Exp. | Requires one round to reload|
|Two foot| 5 | 5 | n/a | 8 | 28 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | Requires two rounds to reload|
|Turnus | 5 | 5 | n/a | 9 | 30 | 1 | 2 | Exp. | 1 mintue |
|Steel | 5 | 5 | n/a | 10 | 35 | 1 | 2 | ** | 1 minute |
Larger variants exist, forming a continumn up to siege weapons.
\* Initiative in brackets for if weapon is unloaded
\*\* Requires steel of a purity known only to magicians. See [[House Verditus]].
{{quote|\[Maintainer\'s note: a brief section on \"comparable weapons\" has been redacted due to site [[Policy]] � it reproduced longbow and shortbow statistics from the rule book\]}}
Note that even these numbers are not strictly simulationist. A heavy bow really takes longer, a light bow really takes less time.
As a note for players, a crossbowman, in Latin, is called a balistarius. The term is used for siege engineers using what we'd call a balista.
Without naming names, one of the other authors of Covenants did express similar views, and I quoted Payne-Gallwey to convince him a far simpler rule was preferable. I apologise.
Note, since last posting I have dropped the rate of fire for two-footed bows. Basicilly this turns them into siege weapons, which answers my question "Why would you ever have a one-footed bow under these rules?" A turnus would be more than Expensive if there was such a thing.
{{cite|Timothy Ferguson}}
= References
* [[Covenants_Book | Covenants]] page 18
= See also
* [[Longbow]]